That "tell me to write stuff" meme I - Philosophical conundrums

[cybermule]

Courtesy of nyarbaggytep.

This was quite a difficult meme to get around to - I had four subjects, and just picked this as the first simply because it's the easiest. Which doesn't make any sense to any normal person, but I ain't normal - I'm a philosophical ignoramus.

I once got dumped by a guy I casually dated for about two weeks because he wanted conversations on "philosophy and stuff". In short, because [he thought] I was boring. I took this moderately to heart for a while, and tried to study philosophy. I got really bored really quickly - I couldn't find a philosopher whose writings actually engaged me. They are certainly all great thinkers, but not really that good writers. The only one I ever really liked was Alain do Boutain (sp?) who's actually slated by "real" philosophers, but covers a wide range of ideas under one umbrella with plenty of good references. For example, I liked "the Art of Travel" a lot. Nothing I couldn't have worked out for myself, but saved me a bit of time.

More specifically to philosophical conundrums, I think I have problems in the area because I perceive it as one that involves a lot of talking. And those of you who know me reasonably well will know that I don't really do a lot of talking. I'm a do-er rather than a say-er. In fact, you could say that my own personal philosophy is that we may only have a certain number of breaths before we die, and we don't want to waste them in pointless chit-chat. In short, I'm a taciturn bitch. I should have been born in Yorkshire so I could keep my own counsel with a granite jaw.

I'm also not very good with abstract concepts. I find them by definition, slippery and elusive. If people (even ones I like) start debating the number of angels dancing on a pin-head, I get boggled or bored, and tend to just slip away. It is awfully tedious in my mind, and I cheerfully admit these days that it is simply because I just don't get it.

I'm not disinterested in issues, or morals, or whatever you want to call practical problems of living. I have quite clear ideas on how I want to live my life, and even how I think the world could be better. Is that philosophy? I'll even talk about them, although I often think they're quite personal and therefore not worth bickering about. Same with politics. I guess that's another crux of the philsophical matter - what isn't pointless is often subjective, and therefore not worth debate. Discussion, maybe, but not argument.

Never talk about politics, religion or philosophical conundrums, that's my motto.

Except here. I'd actually be quite interested in what people had to say - whether they were turned onto certain philosophers, something they found interesting, what the point is?

Comments

[lectrix-lecti.livejournal.com]

I found Hegel's dialectic terribly fascinating, back in the day. It can be applied to everything and makes a ton of sense to me.

Also, being a not-so-closeted linguistics fan, philosophy of language is a pet interest of mine (somewhat interestingly, the only exam I massively failed in uni was one in that direction of philosophy, while I got severely impressive marks on an exam in stupid fucking Kant). I like the areas where philosophy and logic meet.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Actually - you've reminded me of a good point, in that I do (did?) get very interested in language philosophy (is that semiotics?). It's one area that really gripped me, as I guess in my mind I could see the effects in my life and that interested me.

[weemadharold.livejournal.com]

I used to have many arguments with a friend over whether philosophy was in fact just a load of pointless bollocks or not. I think I eventually convinced her that her definition of philosophy was flawed, and in fact every time she had discussed the ethics of euthanasia or abortions, anytime she had wondered about the ideas presented in films such as The Matrix, she was 'doing philosophy'.

I love philosophy, but then I tend to be far less of a 'doer' than your good self. As David Bowie once sang, I'm a thinker, not a talker.

Peter Singer is one I've always liked. I find his particular brand of utilitarianism very persuasive, and reading him always makes me reassess the way I live my life.

You could argue that philosophy is of little practical importance, and for the most part you'd be right. Even questions such as if and when a foetus should acquire rights and if and when it's okay to turn off a life-support machine are hardly daily problems in one's life. But for the people they do affect they are pretty damn important. Likewise all the people languishing in jail for drugs offences should have a keen interest on the philosophical questions of where the line should be drawn between liberty and safety and how appropriate it is for the government to try and protect us from ourselves.

But I've always loved thinking about such things. My long-term love of science fiction is simply because SF is the most philosophical of genres, and I started debating the nature of reality with friends when I was 9 years old. My 'Self, Freedom, and the Unconscious' class at university was highly enjoyable, mainly because of the class discussions/debates. Materialism vs idealism, what is consciousness, can one ever know what it is like to be a bat? Mostly we discussed fairly pointless things, but I loved it.

Never talk about politics, religion or philosophical conundrums, that's my motto.

I vacillate on this one. I often like to be very Taoist about it and just let the world of petty politics slide on by. But then sometimes I think that maybe Wu Wei is not the answer. 'Turn on, tune in, drop out' sounds good, but unfortunately there's nowhere to go to escape from society, and when society is controlled by people who don't like the things you do then you end up spending a lot of time locked away. As Mr Leary found out. So changing society becomes an act of personal liberation as much as anything.

Like I say, I vacillate. But I hold firm in my love for abstract philosophical questions :o)

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

As David Bowie once sang, I'm a thinker, not a talker.

Ah - that's an interesting point. Recently I realised that I do think about things a lot. Probably mostly practical things, like planting plans, but also "issues" and so on. I think I've recently found that the best space I have to think properly is when I'm physically busy - it gives me a sense of calm and rhythm and space which means I think about something constructive rather than just random wibbly worries.

So I now think that I do so that I can think, but then I absolutely fail to talk. I'm reticent at the best of times, but utterly lack confidence for proper debates.

There is definitely a need for some sort of philosophy in life, so you can shape and at least internally express opinions. I just don't know where that sort of philosophy turns into the sort of philosophy I can't stand :)

[surrey-sucks.livejournal.com]

It seems that we have some similarities, such as:

I get boggled or bored, and tend to just slip away. It is awfully tedious in my mind, and I cheerfully admit these days that it is simply because I just don't get it.

and especially:

I'm not disinterested in issues, or morals, or whatever you want to call practical problems of living. I have quite clear ideas on how I want to live my life, and even how I think the world could be better...what isn't pointless is often subjective, and therefore not worth debate. Discussion, maybe, but not argument.

I really can't be bothered to argue with someone about abortion or whatever the topic is about. I have my own views and they aren't going to change!

I can't stand talking about politics, religion, or philosophy either. First of all I don't know much about these topics to have a semi-informed conversation, and second, they are such huge topics that I can't even begin to learn about them. Also, they bore me.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Yeah - we're quite similar. That's one of the reasons I really like your journal - I doubt we'll ever meet, and maybe we wouldn't get on at first sight, but we are actually quite similar in our outlook on life. We don't take a lot of crap, but we still worry about certain things.

Anyway, one of my problems is most definitely that I can't stand an argument. Apart from anything other than mild disagreement giving me the heebie-jeebies, I just don't see the point in trying to change someone's mind.

[surrey-sucks.livejournal.com]

I just don't see the point in trying to change someone's mind.

Me too. That's why I'm glad I'm in the sciences (despite calculus) and not the arts, because I can't stand the idea of having to do a research essay and argue about something like abortion, gay rights, homelessness, or some other heated topic. It's not because I can't write-I can, but because I have my own opinion, I don't care to fucking research it and "prove" that I'm "right", and I don't care to try and change someone's mind on it! Ugh!

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Yes - that's why I went for chemistry. To be honest, I was equally good at bio/chemistry and english, but the thought of debating my way to a degree was both scary and irritating. I'd maybe feel differently these days, but I probably still have more respect for the sciences :)

[aras-55555.livejournal.com]

I do find philosophy fascinating, and one of the more interesting things about it is that people have never been able to define quite *what* it is - it's not quite an art like fiction or poetry, but though it can use much of the language of science, it's certainly not a science either. If someone other than Einstein came up with the theory of relativity, it would have precisely the same value, but philosophical works can't be divorced from the individual who wrote them without losing their essential character. Also, while philosophical works build heavily on what came beforehand, no older philosophical work can ever really be said to have been superceded, or made obsolete. It's curious.

As for what I like about it, getting fully absorbed in a philosophical inquiry can give you such an expansive feeling, like a transcendent passage of music or communing with nature.

While I find this interesting, I can see why other people wouldn't, or would especially find a discussion about philosophy incredibly tedious and ungrounded. It's totally unrealistic to expect other people to have all your own interests, and expecting more out of people than they can give just leads to frustration.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Would you say you used the works of philosophers as research to help you find out about your own inquiries?

[aras-55555.livejournal.com]

Hmm, what an interesting question, Hannah :)

I think it does help reading other people's arguments about things, because you get a good illustration on ways to support and build up an argument, as well as ways to ask important questions that can break down a statement that otherwise has weaved together its own supports around it. Learning about different modes of tackling a problem gives you the flexibility to jump to a whole other approach when the one you've been pursuing reaches a dead end.

I think philosophy can also teach a lot about the limits of logic and rationality. A lot of people take the attitude like science will somehow solve and explain everything in life and that that moment is right around the corner, but something like a comprehensive and entirely coherent system is impossible while we are all still living and changing. There are also assumptions like a well-reasoned and popularly supported argument is better than a leap of faith from the gut, but as human beings there are by necessity times when, in order to be true to ourselves, we have to beyond rationality. There's probably an over-emphasis these days on logic and language, but being fully human is a lot more than that, and sometimes it's good to have some intellectual justification that the intellect isn't everything, and isn't even supreme.

I've also found it beneficial just to see how close my own perception of reality is to the way that others see it. Sometimes your views will be challenged, and if it's successful it'll lead to a slightly different view of the world, other times you'll find yourself disagreeing mostly with some authors, agreeing mostly with others. And maybe the ones you agree with mostly belong to a certain tradition of thought and life, which brings you to a decision as to whether they are fairly close to the truth.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Thank you :) That's the first detailed approach to looking at philosophy that I can actually identify with and comprehend. I've always thought that it was a subject I'd somehow have to study and understand in its entirety without application, and that was off-putting, I think. If I were to take individual issues that I was pondering, and use philosophical writings to analyse and explore the issues, to give me different viewpoints and different ways of understanding, I could actually get somewhere.

Of course, at this point I wouldn't actually have any idea where to start, but maybe google or LJ could be my friend here?

[ninneviane.livejournal.com]

Have you read 'Sophies World'? Well worth reading if you haven't - don't look it up in wikipedia, there are spoilers and it really needs to be read the first time without knowing :)

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Do you have it to borrow?

[ninneviane.livejournal.com]

I don't but Rob does, it was him who recommended I read it - I will grab it off him :)

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Cheers, hon! x

[aras-55555.livejournal.com]

I don't think that there's a place you *have* to start. Think of it as a circle, one spot is as good as another ;) The chronological beginnings are with people like Plato and Aristotle, but it's easy to get frustrated because of a lot of the arguments there can seem unsophisticated to the modern reader.

There's a lot of 'history of...' and 'leading figures of...' type books about philosophy, but I usually find those sorts of things very inferior to reading the actual works. Sort of like reading some tedious academic critical analysis of a work of fiction, as opposed to actually just getting swept up by reading the book :)

ninneviane actually mentioned something I was going to suggest. I haven't read Sophie's World, but I have flipped through it a bit, and it seems like it's pretty readable and provides a pretty faithful summary. Then you can see if you become more interested in something and want to explore it further, whether it be existentialism or phenomenology or the ancient greeks or whatever :)

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

I quite like some summaries - might see if I can borrow "Sophies World", and like you said, dip into something that grabs my interest.

[sixtine.livejournal.com]

I'm a talker. I have noisy opinions about almost everything. If I haven't got one, I'll make up my mind with minimal information. I love a person with a different view who'll chew the political, moral or ethical fat with me for hours. However, philosophy has always struck me as pointless navel gazing.

Why are we here? Because we evolved. What's the point? There isn't one; we exist by happy accident of chemistry. Make the most of it and stop weeping into your pint. There's life to be lived.

Being a little less flippant, I suppose it depends what you define as philosophy. My narrow view of it is not necessarily the sames as other people's.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Mmm. I get the flippant line, I really do, although we both know there's more to it than that.

[hydroplanechrst.livejournal.com]

Well, I think I see what you mean on many of your points. A lot of philosophy really does seem impractical and pointless. A whole lot of talking and a lot less doing, and getting nowhere in the process. Or, more accurately, people are doing a whole lot of arguing and a lot less worthwhile doing, and using whatever convenient brand of philosophy to back up their claims and actions. But I think the best and main point of philosophy is refinement of thought for acquiring wisdom. And philosophy is useful so long as that is its aim. And exactly what that means for me I am still trying to figure out. It's almost like a manner of thought that leads to doing that is practical, that is getting somewhere. Somewhere, of course, is referring to human action that is a lot less chaotic, unethical, insane and animalistic than it currently is on this planet. It's all very vague to me as I describe it as such and, as I said, with my own brand of refinement, we have certainly seen it's lack in 'getting somewhere'. But that's not to deny that a better understanding, and thus improved upon with appropriate action, of how we think could lead us somewhere better than where we are.

I believe that there's too much knowledge out there that is not worth knowing, and much of it dubiously under numerous titles of Philosophy, or studies that were once appropriately left to the realms of philosophy, and that's unfortunate. Studies of the mind and thought are best left to philosophical inquiry. Philosophy, remember, literally means "love of knowledge" or "love of wisdom" and is defined as "love or pursuit of wisdom". Should we not want to seek knowledge that is worth knowing, or wisdom? And if collectively we did not, what could that mean?

Well, look around us. Without a desire to understand how our minds work, how we think, and the inclination to change when we see that it's not doing us any good, I feel collectively we continue to lose big time. However, I firmly believe that mostly every one can change his mind if he chooses. And the individual can win more than he loses despite the illogical and irrational thinking and actions of man collectively. As I look more and more into it, I begin to see that our coinciding universe is set up that way, however unforgiving as our presently residing world may be.

But again, saying this is well and good, but I still have to back it up with some kind of action. Even wisdom requires an active component; whether its knowing when to do, or when not to, one must first discern what is best, or most appropriate, given the circumstances.

Getting to the point, perhaps your disenchantment with some philosophical thought is because it doesn't ring true with you. And perhaps that is because much of it is a whole lot of bunk. ;)

All the best, hannah! So far I love this meme. :)

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Hiya :) These comments have been helpful - firstly, they've nudged me into recognising areas of philosophy that I do find interesting; secondly, they've made me realise that a lot of my disenchantment is down to philsophy at least *seeming* to be a talk-based science - talking is not an area where I flourish... writing, maybe; thirdly, your own point - philosophy is a love of wisdom. Wisdom I do love.

Food for thought...

[ninneviane.livejournal.com]

Having dated someone who did philosophy at university it does my nut in now - I used to love debating different idea and self ponderings but then after one particular debate on 'evil'(don't get me started on this) I really began to get quite vexed whenever a conversation turned philosophical. I guess what most annoys me, is every philosophy student I've ever met has been a carbon copy of every other one I've met - it just doesn't seem possible to have a conversation with them without them a) name dropping and b) looking down their nose like you haven't got a right to an opinion because you haven't gone for a degree in it. I have lost count of times I have been laughed at like I said the most stupid thing in the world for having a different view to the opinion of a long dead philosopher.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Yeah - that's been my problem exactly. I don't feel like I speak the same language as people who are "into philosophy". Therefore I lack confidence and fade out whenever these things crop up. Although as I said somewhere below, I'm quite happy to talk my arse off over a cuppa with my female friends.

[ninneviane.livejournal.com]

But that's completely different :)

[lengths.livejournal.com]

A wonderful guy we both know introduced me to the concept of a "philosophers' beer party".

Lengths still organised these every blue moon or so and I love them.

Good friends just talking a load of complete bollox for a couple of hours.

[cybermule.livejournal.com]

Now, that sounds good. I lack confidence in those sort of debates, and it doesn't help that all my [male] friends are very polished arguers. I've found more confidence since I've gained more female friends.